A Legal Career Journey Through Twists And Turns

Judge Mary Kay Ryan Fenlon – powered by Happy Scribe

We are Looking Forward Our Way. From Studio C in the Studios. Hi, this is Brett. And with me, as always is Carol. We have another special guest with us today. Judge Mary Kay Ryan Fenlon, newly elected to the Franklin County Municipal Court, is here to discuss her career journey as well as the value and impact we can all make by our willingness to devote our time and talent to our community. Just to give you a little bit of background, Judge Fenlon was born and raised in Columbus, has been practicing attorney for over 30 years. Her legal career has spanned many different opportunities, including private practice, government and corporate law. Judge Fenlon has also been a mentor to young lawyers and giving back to her community through volunteer work for the Columbus Legal Aid Society’s Tap Program and Franklin County Court’s Juvenile Justice Restoration Program. Judge Fenland also founded a nonprofit called Rock and Roll Over Brain Cancer, which raises funding for the Australian University’s James Cancer Hospital to support their research on this dreaded disease. Judge Fenland graduated from the Ohio State University with a bachelor’s in criminology and her GED is from Capital University Law School.

Judge Fenlon, thanks for joining us today.

You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

Good to see you. And before I forget to tell you, I have to tell you hello from Dr. Scott at Ohio State’s Criminology Group.

Oh, my gosh.

A long time ago.

I called him and I said.

Wasn’T she one of your students? She said yes. So there you go, listeners. It’s a small world in Columbus. We all know each other some way somehow. And so this was a great opportunity to ask Judge Fenland to join us and talk about her career journey. Her story is like many others of those of us who have decided to look at different career paths over time, and we wanted to really capture all that she’s been doing. So we thank you again for your willingness to join us. Our goal today is to discover some of the excitement and awesomeness of a career journey. People get afraid they don’t want to retire because they don’t know what they’re going to do or they hear the horror stories of someone that didn’t know and they died the next year. Yeah, that’s nice. We aren’t going there exactly, but we want to talk about those career journeys in terms of how it fulfills you as a person, regardless of your age, regardless of where you are in that process, but also to talk about giving back to our communities. This is an important message, one that I like to talk about a lot.

So first and foremost, let’s talk about your history and your story. And how did the legal profession pop up in your head as a kid?

Oh, gosh. Well, my goal began at a very early age. I wanted to be successful and independent, and I wanted to be just like my mother. Mother of five, I only have two, but she was very successful, independent, and she still is very successful and independent at the age of 88. But I’m the only girl of the five with no sisters and kind of wanting to be a tomboy. I learned very quickly how to speak up and speak out drove my dad nuts. And when you don’t have a sister and you kind of have to just be kind of another man in the house, you learn to become very independent. And I did. I was around many lawyers also growing up. My parents were involved in politics and they knew a lot of judges and other members of the bar. And I was aware of the flexibility and that some judges went on to government service. Some judges went into private practice. I’m sorry, lawyers went into private practice, and then others would ultimately become an elected official, whether that be a judge or not. So I thought that gives you a lot of flexibility.

I kind of like that. And then I also saw them all being involved in the community, whether that be trying to get your client base or just committing to the community, being involved in the community. So I thought that would be being a lawyer was the best way to get there.

Well, I’m an only child, but I am one of 14 1st cousins, all men except one older cousin, female, nine years older, and the baby of the family was nine years younger. So I was right in the middle. And boy, if you didn’t stand up for yourself.

That’s right.

We’ve all heard that moving into a legal career is not easy. Besides the rigor of law school and passing the bar exam, which is certainly one of the most difficult, you often have to excel in a large firm where sleep deprivation is kind of the norm. Many lawyers begin at the bottom of the pile of new recruits driving to make their Mark. Tell us about those early years in the legal field and the pain of billable hours and the intricacies of really learning the law.

Well, my start was in government practice, government service, and I worked first in law school as an intern with the county prosecutor and then the attorney General’s office and a couple of different sections, and then had a wonderful opportunity to go to a state Commission, that being the public utilities Commission. And I heard about billable hours from actually one of my best friends who went to a large law firm. I heard how horrible they were. But of course, I felt fortunate that I didn’t have to capture those billable hours, but I worked as just as long hours as they did. Now. That’s not standard. It was a very unique situation. There was a lot going on in the utility industry at the time. People wanted to get in there and compete both in the electric and the telecommunications market. So I was right in the middle of it, the telecom act, and all of a sudden I was becoming really the expert in telecommunications. I was managing nine other attorneys and writing the rules and regulations. Ohio is at the forefront, and we are doing massive litigation. And so I was working over 70 hours a week.

It was very difficult. I was very fortunate, though. While my kids were small, my husband was very committed to my practice at the time, and we had that flexibility. But I soon became aware of what it was like to be at the law firm because from there, after nine years at the Commission, I was recruited away to a large law firm here in Columbus. And while I was brought in as a partner, I still had to little bit lower kilowatt hours, but still had to fill out that form every Friday afternoon as to what I did all week. So didn’t start at the bottom. But I certainly am very aware and saw a lot more women coming into the firm, too, and struggling with the child care issue. And those long hours and their husbands or partners didn’t necessarily have the flexibility that my husband did.

Well, young professionals have to put in hours whether they’re billable or not.

Right.

But the one thing I always used to tell my students who are interested in law school is what an incredible educational opportunity, because you’re increasing your ability to learn, you’re increasing your ability to analyze and understand language, and not just the law itself, but language, and that you never had to litigate, you never had to really go into court. But that whole experience is an incredible opportunity to really excel.

Oh, absolutely unfortunate. It is very unfortunate that it has to cost so much because I think it would be a great benefit for many executives in corporations to go through that, just as you said, the whole analytical aspect of it and logic involved.

Right. Industry or second career. So an example would be a civil engineer who has decided they’re done with being a civil engineer, but they want to become a math teacher, and so they’re really using their skills. But moving into a whole new industry, you followed a career into many different areas, that same skill level that you’ve brought from one area to another and had law as your underpinning. But it’s really been in different scenarios, private practice versus government versus corporate. Tell us a little bit about some of the differences in those areas.

Yeah. Well, I told you about my experience early on at the state Commission, and that was a very unique opportunity where I developed the expertise to telecommunications and regulatory law. Overall, when you start in government, you’re thrown in right away quick to learn the law because they don’t have the huge budgets that the big corporations and law firms have. So fewer attorneys and a lot of work. So you have to get to the top quickly. You don’t wait for a partner to drop something on your desk like you do at a big law firm. And that was definitely a plus in starting with government. And then my private practice experience at the large law firm was ideal. I got to travel, I got to entertain clients. It was very prestigious. We did a lot of dedicated to pro Bono work in the community. I served on the hiring committee, pro Bono committee, and I got to sit at the table with the partners of the firm. And so it was a perfect situation. Mr. Porter and I had a client up in Canada, and we got to travel to Canada.

Very cool.

Of course, he didn’t like to spend the night. So one day trips back and forth up to visit with our client up in Canada. So they were long days. It was a perfect situation. But then fortunate again. I worked on a merger and acquisition, and then all of a sudden, my client wanted to take me in house, and so I got to go to a big Corporation. And that practice was unique experience as well. It took me all over the country at and T, and then over time, I was there for 18 years. Over time, I had clients that were global. Now, I didn’t travel but had to deal with different time zones. That was interesting. Got to know very met. A lot of women from India were attorneys, and that was really interesting to meet and get to know them. And so that law Department when I first started was 500 plus attorneys. By the time I left, it was over 900. And so what was nice about it, though, is that there were different departments, and you could at any point in time say, you know what? I want to move from regulatory to litigation or, okay, I’ve gotten some litigation experience.

Now I want to move on to business practice. And a lot of times that had to do with where the Corporation was looking at what the activity was in the market that was driving necessary funds, going to different departments. So I really got to know the clients because they were downstairs or upstairs, as opposed to when you’re at a law firm, your client may be down the road or even a different country, right? So it was really great to get to know the clients, and you became a part of that whole corporate culture and got to network with a lot of other professionals, not just attorneys. You got to know the engineers and the CPAs and the other executives in the firm. So I felt very close to those clients, but I never felt like I was doing much for my community. The network spanned beyond Columbus. I started kind of missing Columbus and even Ohio. Fewer and fewer people of the company were located in Ohio, and they were going down to Texas where the corporate headquarters were or out to La, where the production work was going on. So kind of miss that connection that you get when you work for the government.

Right. One of the things that this sort of hit me as you were talking about, the notion of you had come up with a specialty when you were in private practice, in doing the utilities, and then ended up with a utility company. A lot of times when I would talk to clients who are looking at potentially retiring or going into some other career field, they felt like they had been stuck. They only knew one piece of something and didn’t see how they could bring that out into a larger venue or into a different venue. And really what you’re showing us is this is a great example. You may know a whole lot about utility law, but those experiences allowed you to expand that into other areas.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. Well, were there situations which led you to make those career changes, or was it simply an interest in a new area? What gave you that? Itch.

There was never an itch. My perspective in life has always been to be looking forward, looking out what’s around me. How can I make changes for the better? And I was fortunate that when I moved from the state Commission to the law firm and then from the law firm to in house Corporation, I was recruited both of those times, I had developed an expertise in areas that the firm wanted and then the expertise that the client Corporation wanted, they were different decisions. But I always wanted to, again move forward, take a challenge. And those are huge changes. When you go from government to a large law firm or even a smaller law firm and then go from there to inhouse counsel, very, very significant changes. So instead of always wanting to climb the ladder up, I was kind of going out out to other fields. And so again, I just wanted to always keep moving forward.

Were you unique in that situation then? Did you see other people do that?

I have one friend out there, and I can believe this, but she also has four brothers, so it’s really four brothers that we started the same place. She went off to a firm, then she went in house. It’s interesting. Again, I think it’s just the independence. But other people, maybe their mother or father, were at a large firm. They think that’s where I need to be. Well, again, my parents weren’t lawyers, not my grandfather. My dad’s father went to law school and he was a pharmacist, but went to night school down at the Y. Great stories. Another day. No. So I didn’t see a lot of it. Not a lot of close friends. They’ve moved around a bit, but I wouldn’t say they’ve taken these huge chances.

You’re kind of saying you’re listening to yourself, aren’t you?

Oh, absolutely.

Hear that inner voice and answer it yes or no. But listen and you can’t fail.

If the firm doesn’t like me. Oh, gosh, I know where they’re desperate for another lawyer.

Right.

I always thought that, what’s the harm? What is the harm?

Right.

And I think too, it’s interesting because over time, through different economies, people have different perspectives on how you move forward in your career. So right now people are dropping out. I mean, did we ever think we would see an economy where people were purposely quitting jobs without having a job to go to? I never thought I could. But I understand what you’re saying in terms of it’s not so much to only have that upward projection, but really to see how you are increasing your network, increasing your span. That may be up, it may be lateral, it may be down a little bit.

You never know.

Absolutely.

You never know times for that as well.

Yeah. Very good.

Okay.

So kind of connected to this is my next question. Family and friends talk about changing careers, but they think their opportunities have diminished. It is evident that women for women opportunities are usually far and fewer. There was actually an article that I’m going to be putting up our website on issues about women opportunities for women, particularly during the pandemic because of child care. Things are drying up as you move through your various career steps. Did you encounter limitations? And how can women learn to move through difficulties or win over those challenges? And I think you kind of pointed this out. It doesn’t always have to be up. It can be moving across.

That’s right. I never felt isolated as a woman attorney or necessarily sought out mentorship from just other women attorneys. I certainly have women mentors, but I just wanted to stand up for myself. Again, going back to four brothers. But also I look back on when I was in law school and capital had, oh, gosh, it was less than 20% women at the time in my class. But I was elected student Bar Association President. And again, I just was very positive, very confident in myself. So maybe that’s where it started. I don’t know. But I sought mentorship from males, especially with law firm. I just came to know them for who they are. And I didn’t play golf with them, but we talked golf or we talked sports. And of course, I had two boys and then, of course, brothers. So I was able to talk the sports, that type of thing. So I didn’t just seek out the women there. And I think that really helped me. And that was the key to my success. I think the greatest barrier for women at the time when I first started were ours in the need for child care.

And I was fortunate that, as I said, I had a husband who was very supportive and other family members who helped us out if I had to work on a weekend or whatever. So there are various opportunities for women now, more child care options, work from home options, even part time options. Zoom has become very popular and acceptable as well. So I think women need to be creative. They need to understand what works for them. Be a little creative, try working at home or try to do some timesharing and again, in order to win, you just need to be flexible.

Do you think you and I have a little bit commonality and background in schools and locations? In Columbus, where we grew up, I was really lucky to have female role models young so that as I got into grad school, my mentors were male, but I was comfortable with that because I had already had women as role models and mentors.

Yeah.

I mean, we’re going to give a shout out to your mom because we have to she’s an incredible mentor. And so I think you’re blessed with that.

Yeah, certainly. My mom, who was a city Councilwoman at a very young age for me, I held the Bible when she was sworn in. I was in fourth grade. So she was very young again, young mother of five. So, yeah, I saw her, but I saw the struggles. But also if somebody said something negative, she’d just move on. Nothing brought her down. So I learned that too.

Good.

You just have to stay focused and as you look forward to what’s coming and know what’s around you and be confident.

You mentioned having a partner who is there for you, understanding the journey. What advice would you give on that Encore career, that conversation that may have to be had to the partner going, I’m looking at doing this. Oh, my gosh, it may be just like, really? Okay, what advice would you give? I’m not saying you had the conversation, but I’m sure.

Oh, I did. Yeah.

Because I think that’s a very legitimate question when you’re looking at Encore Career that somebody is going to change and all of a sudden, yeah, I may be away for a while or I need your support in this because this is not going to bring income in for a while. We still need it.

Well, as I said, I left at and T the moment I was able to, which was 18 years, because I wanted to do other things. And it was a great opportunity. I was very blessed. And so I was doing pro Bono work. I started a mediation company. I was volunteering the food banks. I just did so many well, of course, I have my nonprofit that I wanted to spend some more time and focus on. And for almost a couple of years, my husband thought this is great, a little bit more, but she’s kind of out of my way. And my husband had been retired for quite a few more years. And so one day, yes, I think it was during Covet. We didn’t go to Church, so we were watching a sermon on TV, and I just turned to him afterwards and I said, I really want to run for judge where you support me. Yes, exactly. Timing was everything. I had to get him in the right mood, so I knew I was going to need them and just being a little bit older and wiser, and I knew that I was going to need somebody else.

It was definitely something I couldn’t do all by myself. So of course I have family and of course my mom helping, but I really needed my husband to support me on that. And it would have been very unfair to just go and start collecting signatures on a petition or screen with different entities and wait and see what happened and then tell them, no, almost a year in advance. I gave them heads up. This is what I wanted to do.

This is when you finally found out the advantage of four brothers. Yeah.

As you look back, do you see opportunities you took advantage of that prepared you for those career changes, connections you made, or even the learning experiences? You did allude to that a little bit, though, too, or even cases and projects you took on and even suggestions for those younger lawyers who are beginning their careers to seize those moments, I guess you could say, of knowing, oh, I need to take advantage of that because it could, whether it helps me today or in ten years.

Right. Personally, I was always very committed to doing pro Bono work, and I did that even when I was first in government service, shortly after starting at the state. And I was very involved in my kids parent teacher organizations and parent sports events and raising money and other community projects, our neighborhood block party and neighborhood community resource center. So there was always something that I was involved in, involved in politics, not in full force, but got to know the elected officials, whether whatever side of the fence they were on, just so that I would understand the public issues where their schools was at libraries, was it crime? Was it guns, moms against violence, et cetera. So I was very conscious of what was going on. And then when it came to legal issues, substantively, as we talked earlier, I’d become an expert in the field. So you develop a confidence and positive and a great listener. When it came to what legislators wanted to do with an issue, what lobbyists wanted to do with an issue, you just develop that well rounded understanding of your issues. So my suggestion to young lawyers was to first get involved in your community.

And if you have young kids, just get to know the parents in the school or your preschool teachers or just understand what all the issues are surrounding that, and then you can start developing a client base and become a good lawyer. And I also would suggest don’t say, okay, I’m going to practice X. Now there are some engineers who go to school 20 years later and either as a career course or to move up in their company. Yeah, you can say, okay, I’m going to get into engineering for their law career. But a lot of people, I think, make a mistake to say, I just want to do criminal law or I just want to do trust funds or whatever. And I think that’s a big mistake. I think you should develop different relationships and interests as you are young and meeting people in the community, try to get on boards and volunteer with different organizations, get involved with your alumni organizations, and certainly get involved in bar association committees. Great way to meet people. And a quote I often use and I used it on my campaign trail from Elena Roosevelt was I gained strength, courage and confidence by every experience.

I stop and I look fear in the face and say to myself, I’ve lived through this and can take the next thing that comes along. We must do the things that we think that we cannot do. And I think that’s always how I’ve looked. I’ve taken on the challenges of moving from the different legal organizations that I have and then come back 360 to now being a judge.

I’m always amazed at young folks who are so narrowly focused that they don’t see how experiences outside of their daily schedule is of worth to them. And I always told students in high school there is nothing that I learned in high school or College that I haven’t come back to use. Even though I hated high school chemistry, I used high school chemistry when I was working before I started graduate school for my employer who needed was a plastics packaging firm. They needed a chemist to talk about this particular thing. And I knew enough high school chemistry that I could make sense. And I guess that notion of I’m also a firm believer in lifelong learning. But lifelong learning is not just getting another degree or taking a class or taking a workshop or even a conference. It’s having a greater understanding of what’s going on around you. And that could be just in a new position or learning more of what’s going on in your company. It could take on a huge role.

Right. And a lot of corporations get involved in their communities now. Right. And whether that be pro Bono work for lawyers or getting involved in a food bank or blood drive or whatever it is. But every day you can make a difference in your personal life and your career. Right. And keep your eyes open.

Yes. To go back to that, the comment you made about know, the preschool teacher, the issues that preschool teacher has are much bigger than what you’ve read in the newspaper. And there’s more diverse than what you’ve read in the newspaper. It’s not just low pay and long hours. There’s lots and lots of stuff involved. And the only way you’re going to learn that is to talk to people.

That’s right. And learn what’s important to them.

Right. So one of the topics that I love to spend time on is to encourage our young people to consider working in public service. Often parents encourage kids to only pursue high salaries and benefits in a private corporate environment. Public service will certainly not make anyone necessarily rich, but the downside is nothing compared to what the opportunities are in front of you. Look, as an elected official, yeah, you’re living in a bubble now, unfortunately, but there’s so much more that can be gained. Our democracy, community and our nation cannot fulfill its mission without people who are willing to do the public’s work. Your thoughts?

That’s right. Government employees work to enhance the lives of people in our cities, our county, our state, the US. And of course, now around the world, as we’re so aware of service and government provides satisfaction. It really does. And it certainly guarantees fabulous health and retirement benefits that are missing often in private practice. A lot of people who are on their own have outrageous insurance, malpractice insurance and health benefits. And there is definitely some great people working out there to make sure that your health care, your daily lives, your children and yourself well taken care of when you retire. So working in government is definitely more interesting, challenging and more groundbreaking than many people realize. Things happen right away, sometimes yesterday, yes. And then you hear about it maybe when they call you and want to hire you. And that’s often times, sometimes too late. So I really felt like I was on top of the issues when I was in government service. And of course, now is the judge. But you can do work similar to what you might do in private sector, only on a grander scale and with a greater impact. Government offers excellent training, development opportunities, which it did when I was at the Public Utilities Commission.

It was just a fabulous resource where I learned a lot of people learned different utilities. But of course, telecommunications was at the peak right then because of the Telecom Act passing when I was there. But many agencies use individual development plans to help you plan your short and long term career goals when you’re in the government because they want to keep you. And I know how important that is today. I’m a judge now. I’m at the bottom of the totem pole. I’m a newbie. But what I hear in our judges meetings is how difficult it is as a court system to keep probation officers, to keep the clerks people in the clerk’s office, and they don’t feel like they’re able to move up that ladder. And so we’re looking at empowering these employees with additional training and opening up doors that they wouldn’t otherwise have. And you’ve got to put a lot of resources and keeping your people. And I think the government is definitely doing that. So I’ve made a full circle, starting in government and now ending up back in government. And I feel good about my decision making, a positive impact. And I would encourage any young person, it’s a great place to start and or older people who are looking at a career opportunity.

It’s a great place to enter your career.

Exactly. You know, people don’t believe that you can have incredible opportunities because unfortunately, oftentimes their parents or other individuals that they listen to only know of government workers as them or that person on the phone or the person who wouldn’t answer the phone or the person who gave me the wrong information, sort of that customer service, that kind of thing. When I started working for the state, I was 27, 28, and almost immediately became the project director for a $20 million computer conversion program that would affect every employer in the state of Ohio. Did I know what I was doing? Heck, no. Did I learn? Yes, very quickly because I had no choice. And the program came in under budget on time. So that’s all I can say is that it worked. But people have such a negative feeling about government today, they’re not going to encourage their kids to do it.

Well, again, I go back to the retirement that government has. And so many corporations have gone away from pension plans and you’re forced to save on your own, no matching funds or anything. So government truly does have a great pension or retirement system. So definite pluses. And I think the more education that entities do. And for example, the Sheriff’s office is recruiting officers. They’re doing running commercials now. I was like, that’s excellent. What a great way to bring the recruiting literally to the kitchen table. And that’s the way it should be. The government should be advertising how wonderful an opportunity is and how open that door is to applicants.

Because I’m guessing that people have assumptions on who they’re looking for, and that commercial lays it out. We want people who care about other people.

That’s right.

It’s not whether you’re ex military or ex law enforcement someplace else or that you’re older or younger or whatever. Yeah. So interesting, I have a young cousin who works for Franklin County Children’s Services. I’m giving a shout out to Mackenzie because she is doing a phenomenal job in a job that very few people would want to do, let alone could do. And working with children whose families are going through trauma, working with children who have been sexually abused. And it’s just not easy. But as hard as it is, when she talks about it, her eyes light up because she knows she’s making a difference. And I think that’s really a message, too, that to young folks who aren’t really sure what you want to do. Here’s an opportunity to learn to do something and to make a difference in your world every day.

That’s right.

We’ve come kind of full circle already. This conversation went way too quickly. My mind is reeling. Needless to say, we always provide our guests looking at new careers, taking advantage of moving into a new career and also just getting folks to think about public service as a career option. Any suggestions you have for our listeners today?

Well, there will always be bumps in the road, but keep moving forward. As I’ve said, several times, whether you’re slowed down by raising children or dealing with health issues or now helping with your aging parents, stay focused and confident and don’t be afraid to try new things and do the things you don’t think that you can do. You will succeed.

Absolutely.

We want to say many thanks to judge Mary Kay Ryan Fenland joining us today, listeners. Thank you for joining us. Don’t forget to check out our show notes for resources discussed today on our website and in the podcast. Show notes, the website is lookingforward our way.com. We are looking forward to hearing your feedback on this and any other podcast episodes that we have.